General Discussion

Yes. He could make an app now but the new trait tree will be done within a few days if I can get all the traits figured out.

I just need some input!

Alright, let's see...

Professional Army won't work in this style. Military Points accumulate much faster than Economic Points, and without something else to spend them on they'll just pile up while the nation is crippled.

And I knew this system was going to mess me up. I'm going to have to sacrifice colonialism. . . Now hold on, why is Naval Traditions in the commerce branch? It's an entirely military trait - doesn't provide any economic advantages at all. I can see what you're trying to do, but not all commerce nations would use ships, and it makes no sense.

You really crimped Trade Guilds too, that's going to hurt me.

and on to the real suggestions:

You don't have Veteran Units as an option. I know that one gets used a lot, and I liked it. Ditto with Masters of the Realm.

Scrap the Rationalism category, its a subset of philosophy.

Add a new trait category called Territory for things having to do with the land itself. Things in this category could include (but are not limited to):

Environemental Adaptation (new name for Master of the Realm)

Resource Exploitation (heavy resourcing)

Underground Tunneling - This kingdom has developed its society underground, using mazes of tunnels and caverns which have been mined and expanded.

Ancient Ruins - The kingdom was founded over the ruins of a much older civilization, the remnants of which can still be found lying about the world. The knowledge and technology within these ruins has helped the kingdom grow stronger.
- The kingdom starts with one of the following constructs: Major Religious Center, Fortress, Well Developed Roads, Major Stone Wall
- Constructs cost 3 fewer Economic Points


Ritual Sacrifice should be in the zeal category.

Ritual Sacrifice - The sacrificing of animals, or even people, in a ceremonial way to please the deities of a nation. While the actual effectiveness of these sacrifices is unknown, they provide a measure of confidence and devotion for those who follow the religion.
- The player may make ritual sacrifices to improve morale. Sacrifices can either be made by spending EP to gain sacrificial animals, or sacrificing prisoners of war
* Sacrifices made in a city will improve morale and loyalty in that city
* Sacrifices made before a battle will improve the army's morale

all I can think of right now. I'll post more later.

Lol, I got my own problems with the election which could screw with how my nation is ran and I didn't get any word back on my exploratation party that was sent out so guess I have to wait another mod mark, while you got yours back right after sending it out so I got problems as well you're not being picked on it's seems evenly distributed among all.

So wait now we have to deal with happiness? I liked it when it was without. It was simpler and easier to choose a goverment cuz I guessed most would choose monarcy's hench I choose a Republic to throw a different goverement type in. Never would have choosen Republic in a game where war is esential and planed on going to war immediately if I'd get a negative off going to war with the goverment type I choose. Would have choosen a Confederacy or Monarchy if happiness issues had been there from the get go and not a dumb republic which would cause me to hesitate to go into any war what so ever just because I'd risk losing the happiness of the ppl and if the war was long like this one will be if I didn't lose the peoples trust then it'd take forever to increase back to former levels.

So as a Republic I'd get Freedom which does nothing currently and then because I've RP'd my nation as a strong military most sense would be Glory but from the previous traits I had an decent Economy so could go Commerence and depending on whats in Rationalism could do that cuz it'd go hand in hand sorta with Freedom and a Republic just with the subtraits names being Logic and Law and Order.

Side-note why's Monarchy the only Goverment without some downer? It's got an increase in Happiness as well as a decrease for the Price of Cultural activities.

I'll change Rationalism to Territorialism. I like it.

And the way the trees work is that Glory isn't a 100% military tree. Commerce isn't a 100% economic tree. That's not the point, otherwise trees with Commerce just have a shit ton of Economic Points and people with Glory would have the baddest military in the game.

I'm on the fence about Ritual Sacrifice attached to Zeal.

Also, Monarchy should have a downer.

Secondly, Happiness is there to make your people care. I'll use Ezria as an example.

WITHOUT HAPPINESS.

He can just have a few military units in Shurmanda and not worry about too much and continue to sweep across the continent and dominate everything. No problem.

WITH HAPPINESS.

Agrina is going to get pissed that a war is being waged right outside.

Coronne needs happiness because it's the capital and taxes are becoming a real annoyance.

Shurmanda hates most of Ezria.

Now it becomes a balancing act and Ezria can't do whatever he wants.

EDIT: Ever-Winter, I updated your D2D check it out.

technically, he still can just sweep down and conquer everyone but then there would be a lot of pissed off nationalists that will do everything in their power to make his life miserable.

Personally, i think that the navy still needs work, if you have an island nation than with the current naval system, you would be the most easiest target on the block. There is absolutely nothing stopping the large nations from building a large fleet and just crushing you. As soon as one of those transports land, your dead anyways, i would like a way so that i can command my ships and actually stand a chance. Quality<Quantity in this situation but i was wondering if it would be possible to to turn it into Tactics+Quality>Quantity

Well, Shidrus is the economically most powerful and he seems to be doing pretty good for himself.

i'm talking about the military aspects of it. The Master of the Seas trait seems like one of the more useless traits.

Master of the Seas has been replaced by Naval Tradition:

Naval Traditions - Nations with strong naval traditions value their country's navy above all other branches of the military. (For obvious reasons: they're often island nations.) Service in the navy is expected of the ruling class, and naval officers are seen as superior to officers of the army.
-- All Ship Military Units cost 1 Military Point less.
-- One single type of ships fights as Advanced.

i think that limiting the benefits to only one ship just made it even more militarily useless, that means that most of the ships that should have better sailors will fight just as crapily as those dwarven ships that haven even seasoned properly yet.

Your point is well taken.

Anybody else agree/disagee with Rambo?

Some new problem? I wasn't complaining about the resoure ppl was just assuming they're taking their time because training new younger dwarves with the equipment or ran into trouble. Also not that it's been three mod marks gonna do something about north entrance and missing ambassador, even though I could have done it last time negotiations take a bit so personally let three go by cuz one for travel there, one for talks, one for travel back.

Would negative happiness stuff regarding nations at war also depend on weather it's a winning or lossing? Also if I'd back out after declaring war while happiness was in effect it'd casue a big drop I'd assume yes because the rulers would be seen as weak or lacking the courage to fufill what they stated they would all talk and no walk type of scenario yes?

And happiness is there so repeated increase of taxs can't happen and dramatic changes will have tangile consequences implimented by those changes either for the good or bad yes? I don't think I've done too much that would go against what my people like keep taxs steady, actually plan on lowering it with the alliance and increase of CP and EP but with new traits such an alliance won't generate those points like the Honorable Trait allows yes? Not to mention tax's won't be part of my nation anymore making EP income harder to come by for a little while till stuff happens...Gonna be hard to choose that second trait area. Are there tangilble positives/negatives for the freedom trait? Like creating a constitution can and upholding the principles of the constitution increases happiness. Ruler who goes against constitution and what it stands for suffers with decreases in happiness throughout the republic type of dealio?

Regarding ships certain races with the ability lacking for sea far should generally suffer similarly like halflings do in land combat. Like dwarves due to their size and general structure can only have like a % of military in navy. Or master of the seas/naval tradditions allow the sailors aboard the ships to fight better because not like the ships have cannons yes so it'd be ships boarding one another and fighting. Because of naval traditions they sailors are better at fighting at sea then other nations?

The Freedom tree isn't finished yet man, I added some of the stuff for them but it's not finished.

But yes, you'd still have decreased Happiness but winning the Battle of Agrina Commons would've given you like an instant +10 Happiness.

More like a Morale boost than a happiness boost.

I still think that we should have implemented a galleon type of unit, that i can put like a ballista or catapult on. i don't know, i dont like the thought of fighting with ships like they were little land soldiers. I need to do something to the hull of the ships to minimize casualties.

In ancient warfare, they rammed each other.

i would consider this more of a mideval setting but i will go with what you say.

Honestly, I think that happiness in Agrina going down dramatically doesn't make sense. The government is doing everything that it can to defend the city, it built brand new fortifications and has thousands of troops in there protecting the civilians. Not to mention I kicked the crap out of the Dwarves there.

Edit: Secondly, does patriotism ever come into effect when countries are war and how does that affect happiness? That's usually the case, even if nations aren't nationalists. People are willing to sacrifice more and more and I think be able to put up with higher taxes, like in Coronne.

Argh, Colonialism, Guilds, and Seafaring are the three defining elements of Shidrus, and it sounds like I'm going to have to give one of them up. The only thing I get in exchange is more military power.

Anyway, onto suggestions:

Change the description of Trade Guilds - because Trade Guilds =/ Worker's Union. I know they're similar on the surface, but there are significant structural differences.

Based off the traits, "Happiness" seems like the wrong description. The meter as you have it now doesn't measure how happy the populace is, it measures how happy they are with the current government. Maybe something like "Public Approval" would be a better description.

I'm noticing an apparent bias in the traits. There are some really good cultural traits, but a lot of the economic and military ones are either mediocre (economic) or have such huge disadvantages that they're not worth taking (military).

Also, why does everything that involves not having a centralized government decrease happiness? I fail to see how a confederacy makes people angry by default, or at least any more angry than a monarchy.

New traits:

For Freedom how about Rule of Law - The government is bound by certain laws or traditions to respect the rights and privileges of its citizens. Respecting these traditions makes for a happier populace and less corruption, but also makes it more difficult to crack down on unrest or criminals.
- Reduces happiness drain by 3 per week
- Kingdom is more vulnerable to espionage and rebellion

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Argh, Colonialism, Guilds, and Seafaring are the three defining elements of Shidrus, and it sounds like I'm going to have to give one of them up. The only thing I get in exchange is more military power.

Sorry Talis.

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Anyway, onto suggestions:

Change the description of Trade Guilds - because Trade Guilds =/ Worker's Union. I know they're similar on the surface, but there are significant structural differences.

Give me the new description. I don't really like the "State Academies" one. Give me a description for Trade Guilds and I'll use it.

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Based off the traits, "Happiness" seems like the wrong description. The meter as you have it now doesn't measure how happy the populace is, it measures how happy they are with the current government. Maybe something like "Public Approval" would be a better description.

You're right, but Happiness is more general.

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I'm noticing an apparent bias in the traits. There are some really good cultural traits, but a lot of the economic and military ones are either mediocre (economic) or have such huge disadvantages that they're not worth taking (military).

Such as?

Considering I've continually asked for ideas from everybody, their lack of input does not garner complaint.

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Also, why does everything that involves not having a centralized government decrease happiness? I fail to see how a confederacy makes people angry by default, or at least any more angry than a monarchy.

Confederacy is the incorporation of multiple races, which in today's terminology would be different ethnicities such as the Soviet Union, United States or German Confederation of which there is considerable tension. Notice if you have one race, like Shidrus your unhappiness is minimized.

Point taken.

As for examples of the bias -

Proscription gives a lot of points, but it kills off population, which is never good, and causes a big boost to unhappiness. Chances are that if a player is ever in a situation where proscription is necessary they won't have the happiness level to risk it. In addition, 20 military points likely doesn't make up for the Military Points lost by killing members of the population. I would suggest that proscription provide some other benefit, such as removing enemies of the state.

Military Tradition is just an inferior version of Arts & Literature.

Professional Army is still devestating to a nation's economy due to the difference between levels of MP and EP. 1 MP =/ 1 EP, and the extra cost drains EP from projects that it could be invested in while still limiting the size of the army.

Aesthetics and Scholasticism are both extremely powerful, especially when combined. Most bonuses provide a cost reduction of maybe one or two points, but Aesthetics provides a whopping 25% and 50%, while Scholasticism can then reap the rewards and cause exponential growth. The other traits in the philosophy area are also really good, so that selection seems a bit overpowered.

Hope that illustrates my point.

One more thing, I noticed that there seems to be a bit of a flaw with the unit upgrades now. I'm going to illustrate this with a fictional nation I shall name Pwnia:

Pwnia is an oligarchy, with five elite Triremes. Pwnia also has Naval Traditions (Veteran Triremes), Professional Army (all units including Triremes are Vetaran), and Advanced Training (Veteran Triremes). Given this situation, what happens? Does Pwnia now have five uberimes, each one capable of sinking an entire navy? Or are several of those traits wasted because they don't stack?

Your points are well taken and I'll take a look at Proscription and Professional Army.

What is your take on the Pwnia situation however?

Well it's a problem; I like the idea of Elite or Veteran units, but units can only get so good before they stop being superior and start being ridiculous. At most there should be perhaps two tiers of elite-ness, Veteran (first level) and Elite (secon level).

Now having said that, engineering a situation where Pwnia can't happen is preferable to setting an arbitrary limit on combining traits. Perhaps Naval Traditions could be altered in keeping with its role in the Commerce tree by removing the Veteran ship and instead either improving all ships combat prowess, or simply being a trait that reduces the cost of vessels. Personally I prefer the second option - it makes maintaining a navy cheaper and lets one spam ships, a little like a conscription trait for navies.

Professional Army and Advanced Training... this is harder, since they both fulfill good and distinct roles, but still manage to tangle each other up. I'm at a loss at the moment, but if I come up with something I'll let you know.

Oh, one more thing. I noticed that ships require wood now. I understand the logic behind this decision, but it does cripple any naval powers that don't have wood themselves. Might I suggest that, similar to Warriors for terrestrial armies, there should be some kind of cheap but inferior vessel which does not require wood?

I agree, but what should it be? A Cog perhaps?

I'm partial to Navies requiring Wood to stop from just spamming units however.

Like, for example. Mille Sessau does not have wood, every ship I lose is gone. :]

Shouldn't espionage go under a different tree other than glory? It would be nice. If someone has a superior army..and a superior intelligence service? If you don't have that trait, you are screwed. It'd be a good way to balance things, especially for economically powerful nations who don't want to have a juggernaut of an army.

Such as what? I put it under Glory so any nation could have it if they wanted to.

Hah, this is going to be interesting. I wonder whether Sessau will be incensed enough to rush into a war with an unknown quantity, or whether they'll want to probe the issue and try to negotiate with/learn more about Shidrus. Can't wait to see how this goes.

*Edit* oh, hey, if you're going to rush to a war, could you at least give me my modmark? My troops would have reported back too, and Shidrus would take precautions. Reporting back to Sessau and dispatching that fleet would be necessary, so both factions have time to prepare.