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Caexi
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PostSubject: Re: Questions / Suggestions   Sun Feb 27, 2011 5:02 pm

Alright I have a question for discussion.

There are traits like professional army and advance training that cause units to be 'elite' and of coarse some other combinations as well. While nations have 'elite units' what does everyone think of making it so that over a coarse of war, 'normal' military units gain experience and upgrade on a scale.

Feel free to comment. I do have some ideas, but like to get everyones opinion.

Edit* And it looks like Cody decided to post before me.


Last edited by Caexi on Sun Feb 27, 2011 5:03 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Ezria



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PostSubject: Re: Questions / Suggestions   Sun Feb 27, 2011 5:03 pm

Looks like we had the same idea. lmao. -points to previous remark-
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Jaymes



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PostSubject: Re: Questions / Suggestions   Sun Feb 27, 2011 5:45 pm

Then what'd be the point of ever getting those traits if they with time you can get 'Elite Units' through warefare? No one would worry about that trait at all and just get something that improves some other aspect of their Nation.

And inflicting insane casualties, look at our current battle for example only reason why is because you don't have a full front of HI and the naturally weaker LI doesn't have room to manuver which would greatly lessen the casualties. Normal HI against LI in a stand up battle as it currently is will lose hands down every time. Against Elite HI the number of casualties in a stand up battle, taken by normal LI, would naturally be higher.
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Talis
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PostSubject: Re: Questions / Suggestions   Sun Feb 27, 2011 5:57 pm

The more pressing problem with elite units is that it makes elite ships useless - why would you ever get one class of elite ship when you can get all of them using the Master of the Seas trait?

But the idea behind elite units has always been specialization. Elite Heavy Infantry are good at one thing, and that one thing is combat. Defeating them is a matter of not meeting them on their own terms. Flanking heavy infantry, for example, or drawing Elite Cavalry into rough terrain.
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Ezria



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PostSubject: Re: Questions / Suggestions   Sun Feb 27, 2011 6:22 pm

I'm not saying in our battle marks, but in the previous version of WF it was pretty telling. There needs to be some sort of balance, if anything you should have to pay more for elite units in terms of MP's. Something.

*Edit: After all, realistically Elite units receive better pay, better housing, etc and obviously more training. All of which adds up. So it'd make sense imo.
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Jaymes



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PostSubject: Re: Questions / Suggestions   Sun Feb 27, 2011 8:29 pm

If you look at it as Elite being better ins such a way as superior pay and training but you don't train Light Cavalry mounts to act as Heavy Cavalry. Some units, particular to region or race could be explained through RPing as elites. For Dwarves Elite Heavy Infantry is quite self explainitory. For Human Plainsmen it could be Light Cavalry because the horses are swift and light footed, provided with some history could be explained. Or maybe an Orc Heavy Cavalry because of the cruelity by the Orcs the Horses have adapted similar mentality and because of the sheer size of the orcs the horses of the orc realm are unnatrually large proving to be excellent Heavy Cavalry.

If Elite Units or Advanced Training as the trait is called need to be more costly when it's a trait what about Great Leadership. The leaders to be great had to have gone through extreme difficulties and over came them to have the title of a great leader so should they, specificly also be more costly or make units purchased by that nation more costly because they getting the added benfits of the Great Leadership Trait? I think not.
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Ezria



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PostSubject: Re: Questions / Suggestions   Sun Feb 27, 2011 8:37 pm

My trait is designed for indivduals that have a knack for military thinking (i.e. they have an excellent grasp of tactics though study of military strategy and experience in the army) , not thousands of men that would require additional monies for better food, pay, and superior equipment / training by being considered elite.
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Rambo'neil



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PostSubject: Re: Questions / Suggestions   Sun Feb 27, 2011 8:41 pm

well that would depend on the type of person the great leader was. if he is like really high up than he is going to be living it up every day and spent whole craploads of money because he is the boss.
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Ezria



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PostSubject: Re: Questions / Suggestions   Sun Feb 27, 2011 8:43 pm

Well...that's very, very debatable. Lol. Anyway, i'm not trying to start World War Three here. Juust making suggestions and offering my opinion.
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Jaymes



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PostSubject: Re: Questions / Suggestions   Sun Feb 27, 2011 9:04 pm

No your trait effects your whole army because you commanders automatically are 'Great Leaders' making all your forces harder to route and harder to force in retreat while demoralizing the enemy soldiers who face your armies. Your trait effects your whole nations military where as Advance Training effect a whole nations selected unit type. Great Leaders don't really contribute to the battle in the ways of fighting power but they increase the competence of all your units in the regard of retreating and routs while demoralizing your enemies own forces.

It's not a cafeteria where you pick and choose which traits should make units cost more when they overall change a nations military on a whole like these two. Set one standard all traits that have similar effects, which those two are the only ones with similar overall effects, it has to be maintained. Not sure if it came out right about having similar effects but overall they change any nations military on a whole. I mean look at Master of the Seas makes ships all Veteran yet decreases their price by one as well. Clearly Advanced Training isn't as great as that.

Tea that'd not happen to much I'd think Trait says there's still incompetent leaders but those that are good aren't just good but great and there isn't just one of them so the effects could come into play in idk 2/3 battles or w/e number of battles while that last one has a chance of just an ordinary leader or an incompetent one. Advance training how I see it is just a simpler trait that makes one unit better and is consistent in that fact. Where as Great Leadership makes fighting against that realm very difficult on even terms because you're troops would have to inflict very heavy casaulties for the enemy to lose faith and turn tail while your own it'd take less because lower morale thing (which I'm banking veteran units it doesn't effect as much but we'll see in a big old battle). And then there's master of the Seas which is really good but it's biggest down fault is sea forces can't take over anything on land so conquering junk with them ain't happening anytime soon. Lol

I rambled but that's the gist of what I think more or less unless I got off topic. And this is just friendly debating. So far no name calling I see lol just different opinions.
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Caexi
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PostSubject: Re: Questions / Suggestions   Sun Feb 27, 2011 10:14 pm

And that Jaymes is the whole reason for bringing up questions. Everyone has a different opinion and it is good to see what you all think about how 'balanced' the system is. We obviously want everyone to have fun, so that is making sure we have a fine tuned system.

Take Chia's nation for example. He gets a +4 per 1,000 for MPs because of combining Jack of All Trades [+2 mps per 1,000] and depotism [+2 mps per 1,000]. He has the ability to have a massive army before the upkeep of MPs slows down the growth. Or take my Orc primary confederacy. I get +2 mps per 1,000. Then I have Professional Army that grants all the units 'Elite, Veteran, Advance, etc', but with the economic cap. That particular set up [thanks for catching the resource nodes don't generate income until traded] starts at 14 EPs. Once I start a Trade Agreement or Military Alliance or both, the EP goes to 16+.

Any system for forums/rps take some tinkering with. The only way to make a smooth system is by seeing what you all think and what combinations people come up with.
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Bynaar



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PostSubject: Re: Questions / Suggestions   Sun Feb 27, 2011 10:22 pm

Despotism's 2 MP increase was changed. I get 2 MP per thousand now. My army was massive before it got reduced.
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Jaymes



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PostSubject: Re: Questions / Suggestions   Sun Feb 27, 2011 11:10 pm

Yea I know. You asked about vertan topic it, Ezria supported I'm against it and like how it is now. (Honestly have a hard time remembering what I write after I write it but I stand by what I wrote lol to me it seems pretty balanced cuz master of seas sure your ships are bad a but can't take over junk and then the other two well they're both excellent traits as is. don't see a reason to fix something that ain't broke at least I don't think it's broken.)

But yea I saw that Bynaar you had like what 36. something % of your pop in the military. Would have been a heck of a military but the repercusions of having one that large...i'd not want to see lol.

Chai's nation...gotta check that one out but sounds like bynaar is that Chai?
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Bynaar



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PostSubject: Re: Questions / Suggestions   Sun Feb 27, 2011 11:14 pm

Yea Chai is me.
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Jaymes



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PostSubject: Re: Questions / Suggestions   Thu Mar 03, 2011 2:16 pm

Oh dang checked out your nation and your CP and EP stink. Depositim may need to be cracked down a little I mean paying 2 per 10K ppl a week with his pop means like what 16 EP per week down the drain. Think one would be better because then it's only 8 EP. Can you have a negative income of EP and CP? If so are the repurcutions for having negative income of those?

Also do you have to have minor roads to be able to build well developed roads or can you just skip the minor roads and jump to well developed roads? Same thing with the other constructs.

Also does building constructs take time like you choose to build roads for example and does it take like a month for them to finish well developed roads/minor roads OR is it like takes two weeks for minor roads but 7 weeks for like well developed roads but if you did minor roads first then well developed roads takes like 4 weeks? Or when you purchase them they automatically come into play and you just RP it as like it's been a working project that's finally come to fruitation?
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Ezria



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PostSubject: Re: Questions / Suggestions   Thu Mar 03, 2011 3:36 pm

I think it'd be crazy to attach a big time limit like several IRL weeks, to finishing a construct after all this is a game and we can always say time is flowing a little faster.
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Talis
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PostSubject: Re: Questions / Suggestions   Thu Mar 03, 2011 3:43 pm

Time-warp is a fact of life in Nation RPGs. The simple truth is that a battle that lasts a day, or negotiations that last hours, can take weeks in real time, and preparations that would usually take months can take a single post. It's something people have to deal with.

And speaking of suggestions, maybe we should have a FAQ for Frequently Asked Questions in the rules section? It would cut down on quarries like "What about Time Warp" and "Can a Kingdom have negative cultural or economic points?"
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Jaymes



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PostSubject: Re: Questions / Suggestions   Fri Mar 04, 2011 11:13 am

Yea that's be nice lol. Another question do rebels and outlaws who use 10% of your MP points, do they have to pay the upkeep costs for their troops as well?
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Mille Sessau
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PostSubject: Re: Questions / Suggestions   Fri Mar 04, 2011 11:21 am

If you're getting 50 MP a week, and you have Rebels & Outlaws, you only get 45 MP to spend.

Also Jaymes, just post in your D&D your Cultural Point usage in the summary. If you're using it within you're own culture that's kind of pointless since nobody is attempting to skew your own culture. Best to use it in another culture.
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Jaymes



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PostSubject: Re: Questions / Suggestions   Fri Mar 04, 2011 11:25 am

Oh well the book is made but during negotiations the Regent is gonna give a few copies 2 outta the 4 he received to the other dwarves that way when it gets back to them if it helps with the boost. Can't just have something written I thought and it not be prominent in my own society first. So using it now with hopes it'll pay off later I guess? Or is that the wrong way to go about it? Seen no one else attempt using the cultural points yet for something like that so thought I'd try something small first yea know.

EDIT: About the Rebels and outlaws though. They use that 5 for heavy infantry and a light infantry. Do they the following week when they get say 5 again get another two companies increasing to 4 companies or do they pay the upkeep like nations for the LI and HI and use the remaining 2 MP from the 5 they got to puchase another LI company bringing their force to 2 LI Companies and 1 HI Company?
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Mille Sessau
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PostSubject: Re: Questions / Suggestions   Fri Mar 04, 2011 12:16 pm

The 10% is not representative of them buying forces, but rather tying your own forces up.

If you're getting 50 MP.

10% of that, which is 5 MP would be going to combating rebels and outlaws. That's it.
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Jaymes



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PostSubject: Re: Questions / Suggestions   Fri Mar 04, 2011 4:25 pm

Oh darn...well that acutally answers my questiong for part of my D2D post...here I was hoping that those rebels and outlaws would cause more trouble for me -_- hmmm well I'll just figure something else for the second portion of the next post Wink
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Mille Sessau
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PostSubject: Re: Questions / Suggestions   Mon Mar 07, 2011 10:31 am

Does everybody like the idea of being able to start with pre-set kingdoms?

I was thinking of slightly altering the system so if you begin a kingdom, it's fledgling and has to work it's way into greatness. Compelling.

All the standing kingdoms would thus become " Old Empires " that have been around for some time, but new members would start out with kingdoms that have just established themselves.
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Talis
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PostSubject: Re: Questions / Suggestions   Mon Mar 07, 2011 12:58 pm

I don't know if this system is geared for that, Theo. Set traits and a points system align this game more towards the exposition model of nation forum- building empires for creativity and seeing how they interact with others. If you want a developmental design you would want different systems, like a tech system and such.

Speaking of which, I'd very much like to chat with you about the forum I'm working on. I've added some ideas that will make it very interesting, and with spring break next week I'll have the time to work on it, but considering the design I'd like to recruit some assistance. You'll like it I think, especially the tech system.
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Mille Sessau
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PostSubject: Re: Questions / Suggestions   Mon Mar 07, 2011 1:05 pm

PM me Talis. We'll find an adequate medium to talk about it, I'm excited about it.

Edit: I think Conflict of Cities is developmental more so than expositional, which has my attention.
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